“veggiesosage.... dont let J_Carlton make you feel like that.... You carry on presenting your views, & having a worthwhile debate with Bill(or anyone else reasonable).. I find all your comments very worthwhile & informative thanks..

Did you notice that J_C even knows you are " getting so upset about it"?.. He must have invented a new device that measures degrees of emotions.. A bit like a thermometer, but his just floats in cyberspace.. No substance!!”

“"veggiesosage" I have no reason to doubt your detailed knowledge of the subject as you affirm. Over my last 14 years of service I spoke with many Ministers and well respected workers in the welfare field as part of my job and found a strong agreement that there was a need for urgent reform as the system had become too complex and ponderous. It was likened to patching a rusty car with sticking plaster by a very learned gentleman. Political expediency ruled and it just became more complex and often threw money at problems instead of looking for better solutions. I agree whole heartedly that reforms should not be pushed through for the wrong reasons but reform is vital. I am sure we are singing from the same hymn sheet.

As an aside, in the distant days when I was an assistant manager at a local office, I arranged for my Liable Relative Officer to make evening visits and interview all our case load over a period of three months. The result was that over 50% of the case were stopped as no longer being entitled to benefit. This saved the taxpayer a lot of money but also resulted in a reduction in staffing levels due to the fewer LR cases, which did not go down well with the Manager.. It was not an anomaly as it mirrored a similar investigation in the West Country. I agree that this was a very long time ago but feel that the financial incentives for such claims are now even greater.

It is a sad fact that whilst the vast majority of people are honest, through conscience or fear of being caught, and that fraud whilst significant is not all pervading this appears to elude many people who comment.

As regards the money allocated to Fraud Prevention a recent conversation with a serving investigator certainly gave me the impression that they were fighting with one hand tied behind their back because of serious restrictions placed on the way in which investigations may be carried out. More money doesn't necessarily mean more efficiency.”

“John_Carlton, reading your posts is making me lose the will to live.

I mean, you don't even understand the difference between fraud and changing the conditions of benefit so that fewer people qualify.

Successive governments and the media have repeatedly justified cutting benefits because of claimed high levels of fraud. What I've shown is that this is a false premise and the government knows this. It's therefore valid to question why they persist with this argument.

My view is that increasingly neocon governments are simply trying to cut social security spending from a purely ideological stand but they have to sell this to the public. So the fraud propaganda is designed to demonise welfare benefits claimants so that the policy receives popular support. It is a highly dishonest approach.

It is yet to be seen how many people lose eligibility following the cuts. What is for sure is that the numbers will bear no relation to the numbers of people able to support themselves via work.”

“veggiesosage.... "Lord Freud is an investment banker" not "a welfare expert".... you say.... & that just about says it all about the rabble of politicians who run our country doesnt it?..

They run it with the help of or on instructions from their corporate/banker friends, solely for their own mutual benefit.... None of them give a damn about the "welfare" of ordinary, vulnerable people.. They dont even care about all the unfortunate victims they,ve got working for a useless pittance of a minimum wage (less deductions of course)..

Veggie.. thankyou for all the other info & comments you,ve posted too..”

“If you are right veggiesosage, then the tests will confim so. Why are you getting so upset about it? According to you 99.5% will be given the all clear to keep on claiming.
Whats the problem?”

“With respect BL I would not necessarily agree that a) the people demanding 'reform' necessarily have more knowledge of the system than me (I'm quite happy to explain my reasons for that if you wish but unless you're particularly bothered I won't right now because nobody likes a smart ar5e) or b) that their case for reform is 'cogent' or even 'coherent'.

Lord Freud in particular is regularly presented as a 'welfare expert' yet he is no such thing. He is an investment banker and we all know how vital they are for their expertise in shafting the economy. His report for the Labour Government which led to the introduction of Employment Support Allowance was commented on in the following terms by the Social Security Advisory Committee (a body packed to the rafters with experts from a number of disciplines) in the following terms;

"1.3We are disappointed that the Green Paper does not fully address the very substantial concerns raised by many who responded to the Freud report, and we remain unconvinced by the rationale presented for some of the changes that are to be introduced.

1.4The Green Paper discussion is so abstract that it is difficult to make meaningful comment and, as with the case of the Freud report, it lacks an evidence base. We are disappointed that important issues – such as
complexity in the benefits system, and the scope for simplification - do not feature in the Green Paper. Indeed, we take the view that these proposals may add considerable complexity to the system."

http://tinyurl.com/69nplay

Unfortunately the government simply ignored them. It's worth noting that I certainly don't believe that it is only the Tories who are prone to stampeding ahead with evidence free policy.

As for talking about 'detected fraud' well, yes, of course I am. Although it is not just people who got 'caught', the DWP actually carries out surveys of a sample of claimants. The thing is, 'detected fraud' is the only evidence that fraud exists by its very nature. Anybody can just decide for themselves that fraud is widespread but unless you have evidence of that you risk wasting valuable resources chasing fraud that isn't there. Only a fraud officer wanting to keep his job would push that approach and it has no place in policy making.

As for resources for detecting fraud being reduced, the DWP last year announced and extra £425m in fraud prevention so I'm not sure where you get that idea from.

http://tinyurl.com/24wwpmg (see p11)

Funnily enough I also believe in welfare reform, just not one that is driven blindly by a false belief in mass fraud and tightening of conditions. It's also inappropriate to focus entirely on pushing people towards paid work when governments use mass unemployment to keep pay levels down and undermine workers rights. There are more ways of making a contribution than just paid employment. I would also want to see a major simplification of the system too, complexity causes mistakes which helps no-one. However, simplification cannot happen without a major reduction in means testing but the right wing will never accept that due to their obsession with nobody getting a penny more than they 'need', regardless of the cost of the bureaucracy that approach involves.

Most of all we need a proper strategic approach based on pragmatism rather than dogma, asking what we really want the country to achieve with its welfare system. This hasn't happened since Beveridge and he was planning for a completely different world to the one we have now. Far too much 'reform' is nothing more than piecemeal tinkering which has tended to do little more than add complexity.”

“"veggiesosage" I would respectfully suggest you are talking about detected fraud. With the very limited resources available to investigate I fear the figures you quote are not a true picture. Equally I think you will find that a number of eminent people with far more knowledge of the system than you or I have produced a cogent argument for reform and have been doing so for years. Certainly my limited knowledge from 40+ years working with the system has convinced me that drastic reform is vital and that is not influenced by any newspaper including the Daily Mail.”

“One of the problems is that most of the people demanding 'welfare reform' have absolutely no idea of how the benefits system is structured, what the eligibility conditions are or how much is paid. Such people are not really in the best position to comment as it's not enough to just demand change, you need to have a coherent view of what the changes need to be.

Similarly, most of these people have no idea of fraud levels in benefit claims. I've already posted this from the charity 'Mind'

http://tinyurl.com/64e32yh

but of course the mouth foamers have ignored it. To add to this message look at p12 of this report from the DWP which breaks down the fraud and error levels in various benefits

http://tinyurl.com/66bh5pp

Fraud in Incapacity Benefit is 0.3% and 0.5% for Disability Living Allowance. We are very much at the bleeding edge of the law of diminishing returns were tackling benefit fraud is concerned. Meanwhile, official error causes overpayments of 1.2% and 0.8% for IB and DLA respectively, considerably higher than fraud.

Meanwhile fraud in Pension Credit is at 2.3%, nearly 8 times that of IB fraud. So where are the Daily Mail articles? Where are the concerned citizens howling for oldies to be locked up en masse? Were the respondents to that BBC survey told about that?

So the reality, the FACTS are that welfare fraud is committed by a tiny minority. Therefore to constantly demand crackdowns on benefit fraud is to not live in the real world and to continue to hate on disabled people because of supposed high levels of fraud is bigotry because it is a determined belief in defiance of all the facts.”

“I agree entirely with Mr Longhurst. These benefit cuts are nasty, vindictive and ideological. I was at that protest, and was delighted to see so many people sending a clear message that they will not put up with attacks made by those who will never know what poverty means.

I fill out ESA and DLA forms for ill and disabled people and see the misery and distress these benefit changes are causing.

Do not trust in the Labour party to reverse these welfare cuts if they regain power. Remember it was they who introduced ESA to replace Incapacity Benefit with the sole aim of reducing the benefits bill.

We need a new party that works for ordinary people. The three mainstream parties have proved they neither know nor care how we live, and cannot be trusted to have our interests at heart. If any issue has proved that, it is the welfare state.”

“"jr048" I agree fully that it is the taxpayer being defrauded but I feferred to "my" Department as I did not feel qualified to comment on the frauds being perpetrated against other Departments and local authorities. Obviously I am aware of the amount of fraud in general but prefer to comment only on things I can substantiate.

Thank you Neilant for your support. I would also commend Nell of Bulwell for her words of wisdom which do shine out as a beacon amongst the comments.”