Pay freeze battle is just starting, council warned

“Loses an argument and resorts to calling other person a troll - classic SadBadger.”

“@ voxpopuli

"Unbelievable! Let's look at the current vacancies at Nottingham City Council:
1: Business Change Manager: Working with Managers across the Council providing advice, guidance and creating a strong culture of effective change management. £38-£42k
2.Transformation and Change Manager: To work and support the Head of Change & Improvement and work directly with the Corporate Leadership Team. £43-47k"


A lady I catch the train with everyday is a contractor at a well known Council. Her contract ends today and I asked her how much she is on a day. She told me that she is on £500 a day.

She has been working in Procurement since August on a project to save the council a few million pounds on public services by sourcing new suppliers. Her contract has now ended because she doesn't have any change management experience.

A new person replaces her in the New Year via an agency that she has chosen as part of the procurement saving project to employ staff for a the council. This new person does has Change Management experience and is being charged out at £2500 a day. This person will be in place for 2 years.


These are the NHS Agenda For Change 2012/13 pay rates of which most standard analysts, head of information and senior IT techs get, along with senior medical staff nurses and other medical trained/skilled staff earn

Band 6
Point 21 25,528
Point 22 26,556
Point 23 27,625
Point 24 28,470
Point 25 29,464
Point 26 30,460
Point 27 31,454
Point 28 32,573
Point 29 34,189

Band 7
Point 26 30,460
Point 27 31,454
Point 28 32,573
Point 29 34,189
Point 30 35,184
Point 31 36,303
Point 32 37,545
Point 33 38,851
Point 34 40,157

Band 8a
Point 33 38,851
Point 34 40,157
Point 35 41,772
Point 36 43,388
Point 37 45,254
Point 38 46,621

Band 8b
Point 37 45,254
Point 38 46,621
Point 39 48,983
Point 40 51,718
Point 41 54,454
Point 42 55,945

Low level NHS Change Managers are more Band 8b but with very little responsibility.”

“"Here yer go Garrett.

Do you mean Garnett? As in Alf?


You ignored the point about public sector workers earning as a little as Mcdonalds workers.

A little more actually. Pay across all levels of the public sector is slightly higher than the private sector, except for the highester earners - perhaps the top 5-10%.


"You ignored the point about McDonalds workers earning as much as public sector workers who earn 21k. "

Your point being what exactly? That I selected 21k? That was the figure I believe CouncilScum stated he earned less than, that is why it was chosen. The question remains though; should someone working for 21k in Macdonalds payer higher taxes so that someone on equivalent pay in the public sector can have a pay rise. If so, why? Becuase you believe one job to be more worthwhile than the other?


"You ignored the fact that such jobs as those that you found on the 'notts city' website are plentiful in the private sector ('notts city'? you're not local are you. sort of mistake an american would make, that) and the fact that the practices of the private sector are often held up as something that the public sector ought to aspire to."

I invite you to to find any private sector employer who has a "Transformation and Change Manager" or a "Head of Change & Improvement". The managerial post was 43k. The Head's job might be 50k. Nearly one hundred thousand pounds per year! If the current management cannot manage change and improvement themselves, what are they managing exactly. Please find me the equivalent private sector jobs. Or even explain exactly what they do.
I am English, I live in Nottingham, but I did not grow up in this city. Two things most private sector businesses strive for are a) customer satisfaction b) the most efficient allocation of capital resources. Not all achieve it, but that's not an excuse for the public sector to not even try.

"presumably this includes such jobs you mentioned. Unless of course you have a pathological hatred of anything public sector as your only basis. However, your defence of the tax cut for the rich is in line with your overarching ethos I think: the higher-rate was easily avoided so why bother with it, just abolish it."

See my previous post. You're just assuming a pathological hatred of the public sector. For example, I believe in the NHS but question whether it should be a gigantic monolithic organisation dictated to from Whitehall. Just because I hope for something to become efficient and well run doesn't imply a hatred for it.
I didn't defend the tax cut. I said if the tax measure doesn't give the effect you originally wanted, don't just stick with it, tax something that cannot be so easily avoided. Perhaps you could have a look at the Laffer Curve, and you will see that (for the ideal example of a symetrical curve, which in reality it is not, and it is still a hypothetical model) :
1. There is a maximum tax take, and increasing tax rates only results in reduced tax revenue - this is in effect what was seen with the higher tax rate.
2. If you draw a horizontal line across the curve you will find there is a low tax regime which will raise exactly the same amount of revenue as high tax regime.

There's no point in keeping ineffective tax measures just because you hate the rich and believe in the outdated notion of class warfare" I'm afraid. I do think it's interesting, however, that "toff" is an acceptable insult but "pleb" is apparently not, and that class warfare seems to be popular with the leftwing only when they are doing it, not when the right are at it.

Something for you to think about.”

“Here yer go Garrett. You ignored the point about public sector workers earning as a little as Mcdonalds workers. You ignored the point about McDonalds workers earning as much as public sector workers who earn 21k. You ignored the fact that such jobs as those that you found on the 'notts city' website are plentiful in the private sector ('notts city'? you're not local are you. sort of mistake an american would make, that) and the fact that the practices of the private sector are often held up as something that the public sector ought to aspire to. presumably this includes such jobs you mentioned. Unless of course you have a pathological hatred of anything public sector as your only basis. However, your defence of the tax cut for the rich is in line with your overarching ethos I think: the higher-rate was easily avoided so why bother with it, just abolish it.”

“I addressed pretty much every point you made.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not a member of any political party, have never voted UKIP, but have voted both labour and conservative over the years.

I am not "anti tax" per se.

I am simply saying that If we pay the eye-watering levels of tax we all do we should expect first class public services.

If we only pay tiny taxes, then fair enough I can be happy with that, and we should all expect mediocre public services in return.

But what I do object to...what everyone on here should be appalled with really....is paying a huge proportion of our wages to the state and getting absolutely shoddy services in return.

If I were to pay for a first class British Airways flight across the atlantic, I most certainly would not expect to find myself sitting by the bogs on a Ryanair flight to Benidorm.”

“I was right. You are a troll. A professional troll judging by the way you avoid addressing points raised and push the ones you wish to push. Which party do you work for? The Tories? No, judging by your faux-libertariansim, I would guess U-Kippers.”

“@Neo_MadBadger

"It's quite simple vp. You posted the question why some public sector workers earn more than some Mcdonalds workers.

Still mis-representing I see. I asked no such question. I asked why someone working for low pay at Mcdonalds et al should see their take home pay drop as a result of taxes rises to pay for a public sector worker's sense of entitlement when he is on an even higher higher salary in the first place.

"I replied that is because they contribute more to society."

That is your opinion. It doesn't make it correct.

"You then posted that some public sector workers contribute perhaps less than a McDonalds worker. "

That is my opinion, and I presented evidence of questionable notts city vacancies who's contribution to society would appear to be marginal at best. Perhaps even lower than someone whos contribution to society consists of preparing and serving you food. At least it is an opinion suported by evidence.

"I think you need your lumps checking."

they're fine thanks :)

"It's quite clear what your angle is by your use of this language "...to forcibly transfer wealth from one particular underpaid sector of the working population to another more highly paid one based solely on the opinion of "worthiness". Perhaps you had not noticed but in this instance it is McDonalds that 'underpays' them. As for your crocodile tears about low earners, I look forward in your next post to your similar condemnation of the cut in the higher rate of income tax using your logic. Of course, in your quest you use only the figure of 21k. I am sure that i don't need to tell you that some public sector workers earn around the same amount as the lower paid McDonalds workers, and at the same time some McDonalds workers earn 21k."

Unfortunately Mcdonalds pays them the going rate for a job which requires zero skills or experience. Yes it is low, but governments have chosen to keep the minimum wage low then top up with tax credits if you meet their qualification criteria, rather than raise the minimum wage. That's just the way it is. The higher rate tax raised marginal amounts of money and was easily avoided. It didn't work basically. If something doesn't work you'd be stupid not to cut it and replace it with something less easily avoided.

"But I suppose that that would defeat the object of your posts which as I believe that you are some kind of tax-is-robbery, all of the public sector is rubbish, extreme right-winger was to push your agenda and attack the public sector. Either that or you are just a troll."

Bit of a neauseating ad hominem attack there, which doesn't warrant a response other than to say that I shouldn't be surprised at your attempt to stifle debate. And I'll repeat the theme...if something doesn't work you'd be stupid not to change it, especially if you've already thrown money at it, it's still cr*p, and you're now skint.

Don't bother replying."

I won't :)”

“It's quite simple vp. You posted the question why some public sector workers earn more than some Mcdonalds workers.

I replied that is because they contribute more to society.

You then posted that some public sector workers contribute perhaps less than a McDonalds worker.

I think you need your lumps checking.

It's quite clear what your angle is by your use of this language "...to forcibly transfer wealth from one particular underpaid sector of the working population to another more highly paid one based solely on the opinion of "worthiness". Perhaps you had not noticed but in this instance it is McDonalds that 'underpays' them. As for your crocodile tears about low earners, I look forward in your next post to your similar condemnation of the cut in the higher rate of income tax using your logic. Of course, in your quest you use only the figure of 21k. I am sure that i don't need to tell you that some public sector workers earn around the same amount as the lower paid McDonalds workers, and at the same time some McDonalds workers earn 21k.

But I suppose that that would defeat the object of your posts which as I believe that you are some kind of tax-is-robbery, all of the public sector is rubbish, extreme right-winger was to push your agenda and attack the public sector. Either that or you are just a troll.

Don't bother replying.”

“Over 10,000 people travelled more than 10km outside of Nottingham to work.

Distance Travelled to Work (UV35)
Nottingham
Unitary Authority
All People Count Persons Apr-01 101697
Works mainly at or from home Count Persons Apr-01 6785
Less than 2km Count Persons Apr-01 24233
2km to less than 5km Count Persons Apr-01 32988
5km to less than 10km Count Persons Apr-01 20491
10km to less than 20km Count Persons Apr-01 5602
20km to less than 30km Count Persons Apr-01 2399
30km to less than 40km Count Persons Apr-01 1236
40km to less than 60km Count Persons Apr-01 827
60km and over Count Persons Apr-01 3315
No fixed place of work Count Persons Apr-01 3600
Working outside the UK Count Persons Apr-01 191
Working at offshore installation Count Persons Apr-01 30”

“I'm going to put cat amongst the pigeons here:

A good look at the Notts Council job websites shows poor pay rates compared to similar jobs advertised with other councils in the East & West Midlands.

http://tinyurl.com/c9dxd7d

https://jobs.derby.gov.uk/templates/Derby/jobslist.aspx?raparam=67343362765A48444F5752425570626670743575687545504A523866332B664B

http://tinyurl.com/bp84c7x

https://jobs.lincolnshire.gov.uk/Jobs.aspx?SminimumSalary=0&SmaximumSalary=0&Ssimple=&SSchoolsPosts=0&sJobTypeLook=


Over 300 Council jobs in the West Midlands listed here

https://http://tinyurl.com/cqhte7q

As stated previously, I'm living in a Band A 5 bed house in the West Midlands, I pay £97 a month in council tax and my water bill with Severn Trent is £44 a month. I'm renting privately on a 1 year contract at £365 a month.

I moved from the NG2 area because I found cost of living in Nottingham was increasing way beyond the wages on offer. Private Rent in Nottingham is far higher than private rent else where in the Midlands. And the value of houses to buy is a complete joke for what you get compared to elsewhere.

It was very nice for Capital One to move up from London, along with the Tax Office and the closure of ROF Enfield and moving to ROF Nottingham. Which increased the house prices.

But look at these companies now, there not the same companies as what they used to be.

In the 80's who'd have thought that the ROF, Raleigh and Boots would be laying off staff towards the end of that decade and in the case of the 1st two companies, closing altogether.

Look at what's happened to Boots, majority of staff are from temping agencies and with them selling off the warehouses to 3rd party companies, those 3rd party companies are relying on temping agencies for staff.

Nottingham was always tared with the same brush in the 60's and 70's because the industry here was more in line of manual labour and very little skilled work. And sadly the emphasis remains today that Nottingham is cheap labour, thankfully we have Nottingham University Hospitals and other care elements to rely on in terms of employment. I enclose the following which supports my statement.

As per the 2001 census there were 101,697 people of employment age (16-74) in employment living in Nottingham City out of population of 266,988 Which is a rate of 35.78 people per hectre.

132,530 males
134,458 females

Only 117 people stated that they were in the mining industry.

15,437 stated that they were manufacturing/manual labour

6,468 stated they were in construction

18,551 stated they were in the motor vehicle repair trade which is grouped with retail and wholesale

12.535 stated they were in Health and Social work

8,607 were in the teaching profession

6,216 were in Logistic/warehouse

And 3,263 were in finance

Hotels and catering were 6,577

The following is % values of the total population at the time

20.09% stated they owned their own house, however 29.33% stated they had a mortgage.

Bare in mind this is people who lived in the Nottingham City boundry.”