“Lesta:

Grants for cavity wall and loft insulation have been available for many years, but sadly many people elected not to use them and insulate their homes as it meant partial funding of the insulation from their own pockets. I also agree this £4M would be better spent on insulating existing buildings, but the authorities view this differently. They work on the assumption that older buildings will be bought and converted, the same philosophy equally applies to old industrial buildings which are converted into flats. It becomes the responsibility of the developer to ensure they meet the legislation for insulation, and fund it.

Here lies the dilema, insulating existing structures has no PR value, solar panels do, even though the solar panels have been proven ineffective, and insulation has been proven effective in reducing costs to consumers, and redicing environmental emissions.”

“Andyman, that's all well and good, but take a look around. The majority of the housing stock in the UK isn't new and doesn't meet these standards. In particular, a lot of housing is pre-war so has solid walls rather than a cavity. What effort has been made to subsidise wall insulation for these properties in the form of external cladding or internal thermal plasterboard systems ?”

“Lesta:

All new buildings have to comply with the new stringent standards for thermal efficiency, and have had to for a few years now.

This is why so many are the portal framed variety with the cladding systems which allow them to meet these standards as they are very thermally efficient, and even the fixing screws have to have thermal barriers. Roofing systems also have to meet the standards, the "U" value is determined, and these single ply membranes with insulation systems meet and exceed them. Thats why there are very few brick buildings built these days for commercial buildings, they only have a brick outer skin.”

“David:

These are wide and various and come from the testing of these manufacturers claims from real world testing of the various makes and types of panels.

Many panels are sold on their maximum output figures, and it is industry standards which define the maximum output, and this is misleading due to our specific weather conditions, particularly in the winter time. The figures produced were an average of the manufacturers claimed maximum output figures, and their real world outputs, and all the independent testing in the UK produced this average figure for our conditions.
In sunnier countries which can have full sunshine for at least 14 hours per day they can achieve above 50% of the claimed maximum output.

Wind and wave energy has already been dismissed as its cost is exhorbitantly expensive and inconsistent when compared to other forms of energy production, and it cannot be used for base loads, only as supplements to the base load. Labour Government ministers highlighted this issue about a year ago, and this is why Brown was pulling the plug on this investment.

For base load electrical generation there is only one reliable source, that is geo-thermal; it uses existing generating equipment so cheap, and the only additional equipment is the addition of a filter for the rocks and debris, and to deal with any gases arising. As it is adjustable it can be altered for times when wind and wave power are producing large quantities of supplementary load.

The latest PV glass systems utilise a very fine gold coating in a series of microscopic dots, these are the photovoltaic element, and replace the UV layers on ordinary double glazed units, this gives UV protection which is compliant with modern standards, and they produce large usable quantities of electricity.
With modern buildings having significantly large areas, and these PV glass systems only costing about 3 times that of ordinary commercial glazing systems, and their very high output, they can often be cost effective by paying for themselves in 12-18 months on a large building.”

“I can see what you're suggesting Lesta, but surely there's wind and wave energy at the times of year that the solar power might not meet all of our energy needs?”

“Even if PV panels were 100% efficient then they'd still produce 0 watts on a dark Winter morning when people are switching their electric kettles and toasters on or making a brew after watching Eastenders on a January evening.

The money would be better spent on insulation and upgrading of inefficient heating systems. The problem is that most households use gas for space and water heating (which makes up the bulk of their energy use) so PV panels will only contribute a tiny amount for a huge cost.”

“I can see from where Andyman is coming but isn't gold rather expensive these days? I read recently that gold is at an all time high in price. Andyman, can you provide your source for the 7% figure for power produced from the panels that the city council plan to fit? It would be most illuminating, if you'll pardon the pun!”

“This is another white elephant based upon misinformation, and to a point, lies.

Considering the figures produced by the council are based on the maximum output of these panels, and real world testing shows them to only average 7% of maximum output in the UK, we have a serious problem with the claims, and finances.

Based upon their own figures again, there will be now power left to feed into the grid, no feed in tariff paid to the council, because they will produce only 7% average of what is claimed.

The only conclusion is inexperienced people have fallen for the same old sales con as many other local authorities.

This money could be much better spent and reduce environmental emissions considerably more if they invested in proven technologies such as the deep level ground source heat pumps, which produce water at a constant temperature, so could negate heating costs for one or multiple buildings entirely. How much would it save in money and emissions, much more than a few solar panels.

Also consider that current PV panels are well out of date, and the new PV panels due into production are far more efficient, by up to 10X in some cases, than these currently in production. Consider also the new gold impregnated PV glass which is nearly developed, and will be in production in the next few years, and is currently on trial in several sites around the world, and is the best performer of them all.”

“Mr S. This is the same Council that has been clearing out its old offices and has been proudly trumpeting the huge tonnage of waste that has been cleared away. This waste has been paid for and paid to be removed again, not very green really.”

“I think this is a good idea.

And Wurrows, I don't think I'll take lectures on protecting frontline services; I would rather spend on this scheme than waste half a million on the new improvement director at County Hall.”