“
oh dear, 7/11 was a direct consequence of us invading iraq,

Why would a convenience store result from the invasion of Iraq?”

“M.

sarcasm instead of debate undermines your credibility.”

“"(__"The lie that we invaded Iraq to keep our streets safe has been shown to be palpably false, and counterproductive"!__)

That is your lie.
It was never the reason given by Blair."
oh dear, 7/11 was a direct consequence of us invading iraq,
obviously blairs reason was the overwhelming evidence of weapons of mass destruction and the fact that his bezzie mate was a short ars ameriican git called bush,”

“i tend to err on the side of mr sensible
"There's only so much you can do to defeat terrorism at its source in your boarders.

We need to defeat this at its source. "
you cant say fairer than that, lol
where exactly is our borders again ?”

“I disagree with your opinion on the support for the terrorists/Taliban, the claims of Pakistan Secret Service support for them has yet to be cleared up.
Muslims were in control of Afghanistan after the Russians left, they take the blame for the direction THEY chose to take.
Err, "to do with terrorism"? have you forgotten that you involved Iraq in your earlier post?

(__"The lie that we invaded Iraq to keep our streets safe has been shown to be palpably false, and counterproductive"!__)

That is your lie.
It was never the reason given by Blair.

I agree with your point about the UN.

Apart from your claim about lies, needless deaths and the ruination (RUINATION!!??) of our civil liberties, I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.”

“"level of sympathy within Pakistan for the ambitions of the terrorists"

A level of sympathy based on, encouraged by, and (in some eyes) justified by the West's perceived actions. Same for al-Qaeda, very few people are actually actively involved, but their neophytes are won over by our actions (though they may be distorted).

"America helped Afghanistan to get rid of the Russians and then stepped backed allowing Afghanistan to run itself"

That was very kind of them, and what a fine job they did too, eh?!

How arming fundamentalists with high tech weaponry and training them in insurgency and guerilla warfare, but not governmenance can be perceived to be a good thing i don't know!

Yes, it helped us win the cold war, but over the last decade we've lost the peace.

"Why Iraq was subjected to a ceasefire agreement?
Why Iraq failed to fully comply with the agreement?
Why the international community demanded they comply with the agreement?
Why troops were placed upon the borders of Iraq?"

And why Saddam was indulging in missile programmes that were in breach of the UN imposed distance capabilities including the 'Jinin' programme to produce a missile capable of traveling over six times the 150km maximum distance allowed by the UN?"

What has that got to do with terrorism?

The lie that we invaded Iraq to keep our streets safe has been shown to be palpably false, and counterproductive!

I am pro-intervention, but I am anti:

a) lying about motives
b) a cack handed approach
c) the needless waste of life

Maybe if the UN had more teeth, no veto for the security council and actively worked to *improve* the situation in those countries it agreed (by majority vote) to intervene in we'd see the world becoming a better place.

Conflating the (illusory) threat of terrorism with mishandled invasions and reconstruction is frankly stupid!

Do I think despots and dictators should be removed and the benefits of western liberalism to be spread? Yes

Do i think that the invasion of Iraq was to protect our borders here? No.

Do i think that in fact we've handed a ropaganda bonanza to those that do hate us? Yes

Do i think it was right to invade Afghanistan? Yes

Do i think we've ballsed it up, right proper? Yes

Missed opportunities, lies, needless death and the ruination of our civil liberties.”

“So now we have Mr Magic leading the Magic Wand brigade.

Your rather simplistic approach to Pakistan's nuclear capability ignores the level of sympathy within Pakistan for the ambitions of the terrorists.

Can I remind you That America helped Afghanistan to get rid of the Russians and then stepped backed allowing Afghanistan to run itself. Its reward for that was to see the Taliban do nothing about the terrorist training camps in the wake of 9/11.

Perhaps Mr Magic would care to explain;
Why Iraq was subjected to a ceasefire agreement?
Why Iraq failed to fully comply with the agreement?
Why the international community demanded they comply with the agreement?
Why troops were placed upon the borders of Iraq?

And why Saddam was indulging in missile programmes that were in breach of the UN imposed distance capabilities including the 'Jinin' programme to produce a missile capable of traveling over six times the 150km maximum distance allowed by the UN?”

“Pakistan's nuclear warheads are kept separate from their delivery vehicles, which are kept separate from their platforms which are kept separate from their launch codes which are kept separate from each other under the authority of a different high ranking military officer, under the authority of a civilian government.

Pakistan's nuclear weapons are short range tactical devices.

Pakistan's nuclear risk would be removed by the international community long before the Talebanisation of the country.

But Mr. Sensible, if we had invested £2.5bn in SIS, MI5 and GCHQ then we'd have an intelligence service that wasn't woefully under resourced, and criminally over stretched.

Plus maybe if we'd invested in the expansion of the British Council, Aid and economic ties we'd have presented less of an easy target to the medieval neo-luddites that run Al-Qaeda and the Taleban et al. Why do they want to kill us? Because of what we represent! How do they convince their misguided followers that we are the picture the al-Qaeda top brass paint? Because we seem to do just about everything in our power (in terms of foreign policy) to encourage it.

In 1947 Britain had excellent relations with the enwly formed Pakistan, and across the wider Muslim world, we have squandered this good will, for what? Dead soldiers, the ruination of our civil liberties at home and a Middle East, Central Asia and Sub-continent that hate us.

Lady Eliza Manningham-Butler siad the other day at the Chilcot Enquiry that she was under of no doubt that our invasion of Iraq had (at least in part) radicalised sentiment against Britain at home and abroad.

This is the tip of the iceberg about how the previous government (esp. Tony Blair) led us into idiotic, pointless wars that have been disastrous and tragic!

One deluded messianic fool (Blair) getting into bed with a millenarian half wit (Bush) was the straw that broke the camels back when it comes to terrorism.”

“There's only so much you can do to defeat terrorism at its source in your boarders.

We need to defeat this at its source.

And as Ted says, if we pull out now, I'm not sure what would happen to Pakistan, which has a nuclear weapon.”

“What would spending £2.5bn on domestic prevention of terrorism have looked like?

How many lives (here and abroad) would have been saved?”