“Very well side stepped Josephine, you still select your words carefully and sidestep the issues and still apply your tunnel vision through rose coloured glasses.

I will ask you the question again, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR THE WELFARE OF ELEPHANTS?

Relationships between dogs and humans are irrelevant, are dogs not animals descended from wolves, but they are still animals, you cant have it both ways. Yet you still wriggle and try to twist my words, have you seen military dogs blown up while trying to clear minefields, no i doubt it. Have you seen the beaten Police dogs attacked by criminals with weapons, again i doubt it, yet according to your argument this is animal cruelty so why are you not trying to ban such working types of dog. Irrespective of how fit a dog is, if some toerag of a criminal attacks it with a knife or machette it is cruelty, at least in your argument as pain and injury are inflicted on it. So do we send unarmed Police Officers in or dogs.

Krystin makes a good point, but if this were true and not the subject of two newspaper reports then our own authorities could act, so why havent they acted? possibly because there is no real substance to stories published in newspapers with god only knows agendas.

Again you sidestep the issue with Zion, these large cats are transported around the world to PERFORM in TV adverts and to shows, it is really not difficult to understand. Yet his finances from these are ploughed back into breeding programmes to increase the stocks of rare cats such as white lions and white tigers, both on the endangered species lists. So according to your arguments, this should stop and these species should be allowed to die out.

How do you think these animals at Longleat and other places get there? they are transported from around the world, they are sedated and transported in small crates, which according to you is wrong. Yet you claim they should be kept in their natural surroundings, but when has England been a natural environment for any large cat. Their natural environment is open plains with food to hunt, other wild animals, not the confines of Longleat or any other zoo where they are all fed by keepers and not allowed their NATURAL environment to hunt.

As for David Sheldrick, in Kenya they spell it Sheldrake, so clearly you have never been there, or met his wife Daphne who continued the work of the trust, as i have done on several occasions. But it is alright for them to have visitors with TV cameras in the elephants faces 24/7 as they have done recently, so these too are performing animals in an unnatural environment, as elephants do not have TV cameras in their faces when in their natural environment.

Perhaps its time you stopped looking through your rose tinted glasses and saw the realities and took a balanced and objective view.

I will repeat my question WHAT HAVE YOU DONE FOR THE WELFARE OF ELEPHANTS please try to provide an answer this time.”

“You are the hypocrite, Jock. You claim to care about animals, yet defend completely unnecessary use of elephants for entertainment. If you believe in balance how can this be acceptable, especially when you read what Krystin, Germany says about the condition of these elephants in this circus?

So you are one of those people who believe that concern for people and concern for animals are mutually exclusive? Why should that be? Can we not protect people from thugs and drug dealers, as well as protect animals from abuse? With your argument, to protect children for example, we must give lower priority to protecting the elderly.

Dogs have a very different relationship with humans than animals such as elephants do. Dogs enjoy human company, love playing and learning, and do not need threats of pain to intimidate them to follow commands. Guide dogs and dogs for the disabled love to be with their owners and revel in their work. Yes, there is a risk to police handlers and dogs in their work, but the conditions of work are not cruel to the dogs. The dogs used by police are athletic and really enjoy their job. I have seen them in action, and they love their day to day activities, and love to be with their handlers. This is quite different from forcing exotic animals to live in unnatural conditions, to be transported frequently around the country or Europe and to act in ways alien to them.

As to Craig Busch or Zion, whether their treatment of their big cats is cruel or not, depends on how the animals are treated. If they are kept in as natural an environment as possible, do not live in a confined space, are not regularly transported and are not made to behave like circus lions or tigers usually are, then it would certainly be better than a circus environment. There is nothing wrong with having visitors viewing the animals to pay for an animal care programme, like Longleat does, as long the animals are not misused. My ¿ideology¿ (unlike yours, it seems) would not allow cruelty to one animal to pay for upkeep of another - allowing that really would be hypocritical. If it were the case (but happily it isn¿t) that cruelty to animals was necessary to preserve a species then it would be better that the species disappear.

Circuses are not there for the benefit of the animals. That is why the animal protection charities, including the RSPCA, WSPA, ASPCA, IFAW and many others, oppose exotic animals in circuses.”

“I forgot to mention that `Delhi` has had arthritis for over 20 years!”

“This is an Appalling Animal Cruelty!
Apart from the obvious cruelty of forcing such animals to exist in an imprisoned environment, for life, no animal should be forced to perform for the financial gain or enjoyment of any human!
According to the German press, 2 of these elephants, the african ones called Sonja and Wana Bana, are well over 30 years old. The Indian elephant called Dehli, is 40 years old and has already been hoisted up by crains at least twice in the past, and once nearly suffocated. The reason it couldn`t get up on its own, is that it has one stiff leg - caused by arthiritus ! This poor animal must be in agonising pain and yet, it`s still forced to perform and train for hours every day!
Elephants are highly sensitive, so for them to be shipped around Europe to perform in circuses must be extremely traumatizing for them, to say the least!
Anyone who visits this circus to watch these sad imprisoned animals performing for the financial gain of some individuals, should, in my opinion, be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

Krystin.”

“Another hypocritical comment Josephine, how do elephants get to the UK if they are not transported? and how do our children see them. I am against the cruel treatment of animals, and against the cruel treatment of such cases of the dancing bears as they were beaten into performing for the public, so dont try to twist my words. Balance is the key, while we still have children being abused, elderly people being mugged on the streets, and drug dealers shooting people, do we take animal rights above such matters, NO.
What have any of you done to the elephants working in many countries, nothing, because without these animals working people would starve.
Look at other working animals such as Police dogs or those used by the military, would you rather have one of these shot and killed, or several humans shot and killed? working animals are a fact of life.
Well cared for working animals attract income, in many cases this goes into protecting animal species, Craig Busch with his cats in NZ are a prime example, most of these animals work to support financially his breeding programmes for big cats.

So based on your ideology you would ban Zion from working big cats in TV adverts, business promotion, etc, and stifle his income and stop him introducing breeding programmes for endangered cats.

So yes i will say again HYPOCRITES.”

“Jock, calling people thick because they care about animal welfare, makes you sound like a real jock. Of course there is widespread cruelty in treatment of animals around the world, as there is of humans (governments, including our own, tend to give both of them lower priority than business or weapons). Why should the ill-treatment of animals in other countries make it acceptable to misuse animals in Britain?

There are many animal protection charities that work for animals around the world; they often clash with foreign governments to help animals, but they keep trying despite official apathy or antipathy. Even governments of supposedly civilised countries, like Canada, Australia or Britain, allow brutal treatment of animals, sometime even encouraging it. People and organisations lacking political power have to struggle to fight for what is right.

There is no need to deny children the sight of exotic animals, but do you really think seeing them demeaned will give children the respect that they deserve? You might just as well argue that banning dancing bears denies children the chance to see these creatures. While captivity is never ideal, there are surroundings and conditions that can give elephants and other non-native species better quality of life than being inside tents, transported around the country and made to perform unusual actions for entertainment.

When you mention the Sheldrakes, you probably mean the David Sheldrick Wildlife Trust in Kenya, which saves the lives of orphaned elephants and rhinos, and releases them back into the wild. People like these do vital work for wildlife, but how does this in any way defend using elephants in circuses?
The Trust doesn¿t make animals perform antics for entertainment, they try to preserve as natural a life as possible.”

“Are you people really so thick, they are animals not human beings but you want them better treated, and are too thick to realise that more elephants are bred in captivity than in the wild.
What about those countries who work elephants 12 hours a day logging, why aren't you all out there moaning, because you would be shot by the police. Whats the problem if the elephants are looked after properly, and why are you denying your children the opportunity to see such magnificent creatures close up.
How many of you support foundations like the Sheldrakes who take in elephants whose parents have been shot by poachers and the little ones are taken in, looked after and rehabilitated and released into the wild. Because youre all trying to jump on the bandwagon and moan about nothing again, hypocrites.”

“How sad that you have never enjoyed the companionship and loyalty of a dog.

I have had several dogs over many years; they were all happy and loved. When they died in old age we grieved for them and still miss them.

Dog lovers know that dogs and their owners share the joy of being together, and that dogs love to play and learn.”

“Paul, Sheffield, what's the difference between you and a monkey?”

“So it's ok to 'train' dogs but not other animals. Smacks of vested interest, I think. Why not a ban on ALL pets? Because of course, many of these 'animal rights campaigners' will have their own pets. Caged birds, cats, dogs, hamsters etc. What's the difference?”